Curse

Danax · Jan 04, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

By the way, I don't care what anyone thinks of me by me saying this, but if your going to flame me for my opinion of Ursan, you need more important things to worry about.

I like Ursan because it has allowed me to Pug DOA and UW and complete it. I play a ranger, and it would be a hell of a lot of trouble to get a group in a dead area, and learn my position. I don't want to BiP on a ranger. So when Ursanway came, I was able to have a team of 8 humans to clear DOA, and it was not stressful to learn my role. Takes no skill you might say, but you still have to focus target, watch aggro range, and guard monks with bodyblocking.

UW didn't need to be Ursanway'ed, an alliance group of mine could have cleared it with a normal build using an Obsidian Tank, but...4 hours versus 2.5 hours with Ursans is a lot more appealing to more casual players. Besides, I hate Obsidian Tank.

Anyway, that's the enjoyment I got out of Ursan, would prefer if you didn't take it away from me, but this is the internet, so no one cares what I think right?

zwei2stein · Jan 04, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danax

Anyway, that's the enjoyment I got out of Ursan, ...

Question: Didn't it occur to you are you no longer play class you enjoy, i.e. that you are no longer a ranger?

You could have used any other toon and it would be the same...

Now, if you are no longer playing Ranger, why didn't you do those areas with other characters/classes more welcome there?

Danax · Jan 04, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Question: Didn't it occur to you are you no longer play class you enjoy, i.e. that you are no longer a ranger?

You could have used any other toon and it would be the same...

Now, if you are no longer playing Ranger, why didn't you do those areas with other characters/classes more welcome there?

Monuments are not transferrable. I vanquish using ranger builds, but I dont want to do DOA with a ranger build. and that build doesnt even use bows.

Sparda · Jan 04, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

I seem to get your point.

But you see some skills is must in some parts of the game.

Being a rit, I share your pain about DoA, that being descriminated. So I only do DoA with guildies. If the Ursan fad is irritating you to hell, then stand up and say "ursan is stupid". But dont say "Ursan is stupid" and use ursan yourself. It takes away certain credibility.

Again, the point is not DoA, but builds: that everyone of us have "borrowed" some PvXWiki builds and changed a skill or two, and we call that "original and creative". The fact, there is not many very useful skills around - lots of "useless" skill by default or by nerfed - we have to do what little we got. And having only 8 skills in a bar, we have to make that bar as efficient as possible.

Good point i do not hate the skill itself or what so ever.
What i dislike it that if you wanna roll with the people in DoA is that they exclude you course they think my title show my skill.
though luck for them they never seen me play the game my Lb is low like 5 near 6 but i play since the beginning and did some serious damage there with more proffessons.
Let those players judge me by how good i play the game itself not what they think my title shows.
IMO it just shows there fragile mental state course they think this is THE WAY of playing GW has 1235 PvP skills they are made to be used i one way or another.

Sparda · Jan 04, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Welcome to DOA.

Ursan did NOT create the request for high ranked titles. Anet did when they made Lightbringer a title that actually had a benefit. I hit rank 8 lb before there was a doa hard mode or an lb farm. Low ranked lb people had a hard time getting a group way back then as well. Why? That rank showed how much experience you actually had in the area. Nothing changed but the meta. The problem only seems worse now and it has nothing to do with Ursan .. there are just fewer people in doa so the new people will have a harder time getting a group. Thank the decline of the game not a skill. If anything Ursan has been a blessing to DOA pugs that do not have the skill level for the traditional cookie cutter builds.

as i said to the other lad in a quote i do not judge the skill it's just the way how people play that way there is no other way there im still stuck with 15 gemsets.
Only the more higher title rank players think they are to good for me.
And as i said my LB does not show/say my skill only that i whas crazy enough to rank it up to play the content they exclude me from since the title with benefits. (purple heart syndrome)

Numa Pompilius · Jan 04, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- To be used in as an alternative method to complete hard mode especially for nerfed professions, perhaps?

By removing all professions except ursan and monk, and effectively turning all professions into rushing wammos on steroids?
The answer to insufficient variation is even less variation?

Quote:

- PvP requires that skills are balanced.
---
So in PvE overpowered skills don't matter, because --- when there is no competition, the competition can't be unfair?

So you'd be OK with an instawin skill? You click it, and all monsters in the zone die and drop their loot. That would make for enjoyable PvE?

I'm not talking 'fair' here, I'm talking 'challenge and enjoyment', which imbalance does not provide.

I think the same people who'd like that instawin skill also like ursan: farmers. Farmers are the bane and scourge of PvE, and it's a shame that ANet have apparently been convinced by a vocal minority that PvE and farming is the same thing.

Quote:

- Why?

They obviously don't believe that PvE users are capable of designing their own skillbars, as they gave them a single skill which when clicked turns into a full skillbar of overpowered skills, and made sure that those overpowered skills would require no thought or skill beyond mashing as soon as they recharge.
I guess they figured even PvE players could manage that.

upier · Jan 04, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I think the same people who'd like that instawin skill also like ursan: farmers. Farmers are the bane and scourge of PvE, and it's a shame that ANet have apparently been convinced by a vocal minority that PvE and farming is the same thing.

Sup runes are OK in PvE.
Tanks are OK.
Aggro is still being thrown around.
I R TEH KING OF TEH WORLD and it's all about me me ME!11!

Yep - PvE is being farmed rather then played.
I thought that was clear to pretty much everyone.

aapo · Jan 04, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

By removing all professions except ursan and monk, and effectively turning all professions into rushing wammos on steroids?
The answer to insufficient variation is even less variation?

- All previous builds that can complete DoA + ursan > all previous builds that can complete DoA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

So you'd be OK with an instawin skill? You click it, and all monsters in the zone die and drop their loot. That would make for enjoyable PvE?

- Yeah! I'm also okay with jews, blacks, gays and arabs as long as they don't come bomb my house. How about you? Are you okay with things that have nothing to do with you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I'm not talking 'fair' here, I'm talking 'challenge and enjoyment', which imbalance does not provide.

What takes away challenge of this game?
"Ursan does"
Why?
"Because it's overpowered"
But it doesn't take away challenge if you don't use it.
"..."

And suddenly Little Timmy shuts up and starts paying more attention to what he's saying. For Little Timmy, unlike posters on this board, is an intelligent kid since even when he's being humiliated he learns from his mistakes.

Danax · Jan 04, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Why do people get the image that if you use Ursan, there is no challenge or enjoyment? The challenge part only applies if you have Good monks, people who can focus target, and people who don't overaggro. Then, some of the challenge is eliminated, because you have co-operation between the ursans.

As for enjoyment, I personally get more enjoyment when i'm suceeding.

GloryFox · Jan 04, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Posted by Racthoh
What's the point in playing a game if the only way you can make it fun and challenging is to create your own handicaps? I don't see why a player who works to become better should have to penalize themselves because the skill they developed made the game dull for them.

What's the point in playing a game if everyone else tells you how to enjoy it?

I remember when Masters of Orion II came out and was all the rage, and everyone said the way to win was by only using the "Creative Research" option when building your race. After a while winning became boring and the natural flow that followed was to not use that option for the sake of getting a thrill from winning. I therefore handicapped myself to become better by NOT using "Creative Research". It was the natural flow of progression from being a poor player who hated trade to a tournament player using trade to my advantage for the win.

Naturally people do this when an area in a game or the game itself becomes too easy. However if you force your idea's of "play how I enjoy it" down someone else's throat people will automatically rebel and either leave the game or play with a poor attitude. I prefer they stay and enjoy the game.

I've known too many people who have left the game due to Ritual Lord Nerfs, and Aggressive Refrain Nerfs. This came from PvP forcing how PvE players play and enjoy the game. Now it seems people are forcing how PvE skills should be conformed to how others should play their PVE game. BECAUSE THEY WANT A HANDICAP forced upon the community by someone else, rather than giving themselves their own HANDICAP.

Either way its a handicap (self induced or ANET induced) so give it a rest already. Don't be a hypocrite; If you want to handicap yourself thats fine but don't go and handicap someone else just to boost your own ego.

Danax · Jan 04, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

What's the point in playing a game if everyone else tells you how to enjoy it?

I remember when Masters of Orion II came out and was all the rage, and everyone said the way to win was by only using the "Creative Research" option when building your race. After a while winning became boring and the natural flow that followed was to not use that option for the sake of getting a thrill from winning. I therefore handicapped myself to become better by NOT using "Creative Research". It was the natural flow of progression from being a poor player who hated trade to a tournament player using trade to my advantage for the win.

Naturally people do this when an area in a game or the game itself becomes too easy. However if you force your idea's of "play how I enjoy it" down someone else's throat people will automatically rebel and either leave the game or play with a poor attitude. I prefer they stay and enjoy the game.

I've known too many people who have left the game due to Ritual Lord Nerfs, and Aggressive Refrain Nerfs. This came from PvP forcing how PvE players play and enjoy the game. Now it seems people are forcing how PvE skills should be conformed to how others should play their PVE game. BECAUSE THEY WANT A HANDICAP forced upon the community by someone else, rather than giving themselves their own HANDICAP.

Either way its a handicap (self induced or ANET induced) so give it a rest already. Don't be a hypocrite; If you want to handicap yourself thats fine but don't go and handicap someone else just to boost your own ego.

^^ Good post mate

leprekan · Jan 04, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

When DOA was hard, it also didn't award LB points for anything, so it could be only measured how much one would grind to enter pugs.

Yes, it didn't change that much, however that was NOT an improvement. Easy to use build with little variation was replaced with Brainless build with zero variation. Picky pugs have more reasons to be picky.

Casualls dont see any more gameplay (two titles to grind), all you see are people with glowy hands. Its not more fun.

If that area bad before, now its complete trash.

Sorry, but I have seen MORE pugs forming since UB was introduced to DOA than the months leading up to it. There was a period where DOA was reduced to farming builds not clearing builds. UB at least seems to be bringing back the concept of actually clearing the areas again not just farming the easy parts of a zone. I would call this a massive improvement.

Who cares if it is easy for Timmy the noob (aside from the usual suspects in this and every ursan thread) atleast now he has a chance at a pug. Like anyone would take Timmy as an OB tank .. if Timmy puts some effort into it he can easily get a UB group.

The true casual player NEVER got a group in DOA anyway. Nothing changed.

lyra_song · Jan 04, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I dont think its a matter of forcing someone to play a certain way.

But rather...look around and see the current state of the gameplay.

Is the effects of Ursan positive for the community and the game?
Is the effects of Ursan positive for the game only?(at expense of the community)
Is the effects of Ursan positive for the community only?(at expense of the game)

I think in its present state, Ursan creates a very dangerous situation, since it completely nullifies almost any and all gameplay challenge which is very detrimental to the game, even though it has some positive effects to the players.

Sir Seifus Halbred · Jan 04, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I never knew what this was until now, lol. I am still not 100% familar with everything in EoTn, skills, towns, etc. I have beaten EoTn but that doesn't mean i know everything about it, hehe.

Hollow Gein · Jan 04, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I think in its present state, Ursan creates a very dangerous situation, since it completely nullifies almost any and all gameplay challenge which is very detrimental to the game, even though it has some positive effects to the players.

That is true in part. I use Ursan-way from time to time for farming, vanquishing, or to get pass a particular annoying/time-consuming area. For me, I worry more when a new or less experienced player rushes ahead in the game to get Ursans Blessing because they read it is great 'build' and not taking the time to learn the game itself. For example, Ursan-way is not 'invincible' if you pull/aggro more enemies than your group can handle. Either way, I don't care if they leave it or nerf it seeing as GW2 is not too far off and all this will be irrelevant.

leprekan · Jan 04, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont think its a matter of forcing someone to play a certain way.

But rather...look around and see the current state of the gameplay.

Is the effects of Ursan positive for the community and the game?
Is the effects of Ursan positive for the game only?(at expense of the community)
Is the effects of Ursan positive for the community only?(at expense of the game)

I think in its present state, Ursan creates a very dangerous situation, since it completely nullifies almost any and all gameplay challenge which is very detrimental to the game, even though it has some positive effects to the players.

You and those thinking UB is the cause of the decline or a possible cause need to consider one thing. Perhaps .. it is Anet's response to a game on the downhill slide to becoming a ghost town.

EVERY outpost has fewer people in it each month. People do NOT group together unless forced to. If they have 10% of the copies sold actually playing the game I would be shocked. I am not preaching the sky is falling just stating what anyone that actually still plays can already see. Go through and get all the protector titles in a week and you will see how dead the towns are.

UB has actually gotten people to CLEAR UW. There are ACTUALLY groups forming for it now not just 16/16 monk LF.... I am sorry I do not see the downside that you must see.

If you still find ANY area a challenge I would love to hear what it is. Every area in PVE land is the same challenge (none) once you know the patrol pathing. This skill just helps Timmy the noob find others to play with.

Fried Tech · Jan 04, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

You and those thinking UB is the cause of the decline or a possible cause need to consider one thing. Perhaps .. it is Anet's response to a game on the downhill slide to becoming a ghost town.

EVERY outpost has fewer people in it each month. People do NOT group together unless forced to. If they have 10% of the copies sold actually playing the game I would be shocked. I am not preaching the sky is falling just stating what anyone that actually still plays can already see. Go through and get all the protector titles in a week and you will see how dead the towns are.

UB has actually gotten people to CLEAR UW. There are ACTUALLY groups forming for it now not just 16/16 monk LF.... I am sorry I do not see the downside that you must see.

If you still find ANY area a challenge I would love to hear what it is. Every area in PVE land is the same challenge (none) once you know the patrol pathing. This skill just helps Timmy the noob find others to play with.

/agree100%

maybe soon all the people complaining about ursan will realize they are beating a dead horse. and the people who support it are also beating a dead horse, with ursan strike. Just agree to disagree, and move on with your virtual lives.

lyra_song · Jan 04, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

You and those thinking UB is the cause of the decline or a possible cause need to consider one thing. Perhaps .. it is Anet's response to a game on the downhill slide to becoming a ghost town.

EVERY outpost has fewer people in it each month. People do NOT group together unless forced to. If they have 10% of the copies sold actually playing the game I would be shocked. I am not preaching the sky is falling just stating what anyone that actually still plays can already see. Go through and get all the protector titles in a week and you will see how dead the towns are.

I dont think the UB is the cause of any decline. I would agree that it has possibly increased activity (hence my comment about being good for the community).

I think it makes the game too easy. I think this is bad. Simple as that.

Quote:

UB has actually gotten people to CLEAR UW. There are ACTUALLY groups forming for it now not just 16/16 monk LF.... I am sorry I do not see the downside that you must see.

Even with Ursan in place, I actually had zero incentive to clear UW until the Eternal Sword was revealed.

We can attribute Ursan to making pugs easier, but I wouldn't say that its the only motivating factor.

Quote:

If you still find ANY area a challenge I would love to hear what it is. Every area in PVE land is the same challenge (none) once you know the patrol pathing. This skill just helps Timmy the noob find others to play with.

I only really find a challenge in pvp nowadays.

But...how I feel about the challenge of an area doesn't change the fact that an area is supposed to a certain amount of difficulty (because I do not represent everyone). This is built into the design of areas and monster choices and patrol choices.

My opinion about that difficulty should matter less than Timmy the noob. Its supposed to be hard, thats why Timmy the noob finds it hard. If Timmy can instantly negate the need to know the area, to have knowledge of how to play and can just mash buttons to beat an area, this is good for Timmy.

But this isn't good for the game. The quality of a game is directly correlating to its integrity and maintaining good design principles.

Ursanway may make the game easier, but it doesn't make it better.

Imo, Ursan way is nothing more than an super-exploit. Its a broken skill. Its no different from using any skill thats more powerful than balanced game mechanics should allow. I remember when Thunderclap didnt end...and you could have continuous KD. That was a hell of a skill.

Now I know you'll say something like..."Oh its pve, pve doesnt need to be balanced."

If every monster dropped 100k, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you gained 20 levels on your first kill, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you can defeat any area of the game based on one skill,that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

Numa Pompilius · Jan 04, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Imo, Ursan way is nothing more than an super-exploit. Its a broken skill. Its no different from using any skill thats more powerful than balanced game mechanics should allow. I remember when Thunderclap didnt end...and you could have continuous KD. That was a hell of a skill.

Now I know you'll say something like..."Oh its pve, pve doesnt need to be balanced."

If every monster dropped 100k, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you gained 20 levels on your first kill, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you can defeat any area of the game based on one skill,that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

That's really all there's to say about it. Very good post.

lyra_song · Jan 04, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Theres a balance between pleasing your customers and actually having a good game just as there should be a balance between monster strength and player strength.

A company could do everything the players wanted, and those players would be very happy, but you would end up with a crappy fanservice game to players who already arent established in the system.